Tacheles mit Tangueros 6: An Interview with Murat Erdemsel - Part B

Please do not miss the first part of this interview:
An Interview with Murat Erdemsel Part A

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In the 2nd session of our chat we talked about perception of music and musicality…

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[05.06.14 22:57:57] Cassiel: Let's talk about musicality. A very important question (at least in my opinion) we have to discuss at the beginning: Is it „valid“ to assume a common perception of music? Or with other words: Is there any projection of an auditary perception to any other action (viewing a picture, dancing etc.)?
On your website you mentioned the Kiki-Bouba-experiment could you explain, why it may be important for dancers to know about this experiment and how you use it in your lectures?

Murat Erdemsel: I see two questions here. Perception is such a powerful thing that can show how unique each of us are. In the other hand, it can also separate us from each other. As Bruce Lee said once, “under the sky, under the heavens, there is but one family.” He also added, “styles separate men”.
I see it as a spectrum that we need to be aware, one side is "as it is" the other side "the way we see it, our perception". The way we hear the music or let’s speak in general, accepting things as we want them to be, makes us who we are, distinguishes our approach but also most of the time takes us away from the reality. Periodically, I sit and meditate Vipassana for 10 hours a day in 10 days in noble silence so I can just explain this to myself :)

“Tango music was already there”.

In fact we have been hearing the same tunes for the last 80 -100 years. My understanding is that students and young dancers quickly individualize their experiences and pick and choose based on their understanding and even convenience. Such approaches as; “my perception" , "the way I hear it" , "the style I choose”, "my teacher tells me that way" etc. makes the situation more troublesome. When it comes to music, before we include our perception in to it, there is about a couple thousand things to be aware of. I have seen a student showing up to the doorway of my musicality workshop, and asking me "what can be taught on musicality? - isn't it something we were born with? - Some have the ears for it some don't. - Should I really take this class?" I answer him, “musicians attend college for 5 years to learn music before they make their own choices, I think you should spend your next 1 hour and 30 minutes for the same “.

Cassiel: This really brings it up to the surface. You really think music is very important, can I say that?

Murat Erdemsel: Look, if you put a hundred people in one room, and tell them, some will be leaders some will be followers, and leave them there for 8 hours in silence, I guarantee, in just a few hours they will fight, hurt each other, in some cases they will kill. But if you played music, they would dance. With peace, with love and respect.
Tango music is already astonishingly rich, before we may or not involve our perceptions in to it. There is so much to study and understand before making personal choices about it.
Hope this covers the first question.

Before Kiki and Bouba, I made some workshops about using examples from ‘speaking a language ‘ . I found ways of using corresponding gestures in the dance. One of these workshops was called I-wanna-dance-tango. 4 words, with corresponding 4 steps - a pattern of 1 side, 2 forward then another side step to close. Students practiced how to put punctuations in the pattern as we do in language speaking. Using punctuations and pauses therefore creating new meanings out of the same 4 steps. Workshop would grow towards, stylizing the sentence, adding expressions. Ladies creating the sentence, telling him so he can dance her expression in the same 4 steps. This was the bridge to Kiki and Bouba idea.


Cassiel: Is this how you started to make presentations and lectures?

Murat Erdemsel: Yes. I worked for a studio in NYC called Dance Manhattan. I was young, eager and persistent. Another instructor at the studio was, Hector Del Curto, a current bandoneon player for the show Forever Tango, who also had the privilege of playing with artists like Osvaldo Pugliese and Astor Piazzolla. He used to teach musicality to advanced dancers while playing his bandoneon during his class: exceptional sessions as you can imagine. 


Hector Del Curto, Bandoneón

Then, one day, the show Forever tango took him on tour again, and he temporarily left his position. His musicality workshops were forwarded to me. Frightening, frustrating, horrible nightmare. I taught the first one, did not have much to say. Second one even less, and studio cancelled the series before the 3rd class. This was embarrassing, it was a clear failure. But also it was a beginning. I promised myself to repair what happened. A year later, during one of my first musicality lectures, I got to share this story with the audience. This was a new beginning to me, which soon I would be understanding that there is so much to find in this music, make workshops of, and help students to dance better.
"I-wanna-dance-tango (it is not I WANT TO dance tango), then kiki and bouba workshops were good parts of this everlasting research I was going to get in to.

Cassiel: The most interesting aspect of the Kiki-Bouba-Experiment (in my opinion) is the fact, that it works in all cultures. Therefore there must be something specific in auditory perception. And in a next step. Tango music isn't randomly. I suppose there are specific elements in this music...

Murat Erdemsel: Wolfgang Köhler's Kiki and Bouba experiment was widely accepted even though he wasn’t the first man talking about the idea.

Kiki and Bouba represented by TAN and GO

Kiki and bouba correspond as how we know in musical terms, staccato and legato. Tango music offers an exceptional balance of the two. More clearly than many other genres. Kiki and bouba were called as my funny assistants in some other interviews. Shapes were easy to remember, words were cute and funny to speak. They quickly became a subject of conversations among tango friends. People accepted the idea very quickly. It was not about the beat, rhythm, counting, steps anymore. It was simpler, yet much more powerful because it spoke many meanings. Those, who thought they were challenged hearing the music, finding the beat, hearing the instruments or catching the phrases, all of a sudden were able to dance with ease with such instinctive way. Not only able to detect staccato and legato in the sound, (and sometimes both playing simultaneously), they got to learn which movements, steps and gestures represent kiki and bouba. So that they were easily able to execute presumingly difficult walking and turning patterns. What else is in the vocabulary of our dance anyway? Furthermore, kiki would help men to walk with each other on the line of the dance as they keep their eyes on the leaders in front, establishing a better floor craft, but then, bouba would take them to compact their dance with turns in closer embrace. Results have been always remarkably good. Everything else started to grow around this simple idea. During the walk or turn, what else was there happening in the music? "Less is more" and "god is in details" came in and introduce another element, called "texture", as we think of it as simplicity vs. complexity.
"Form" aspect of music was always present in kiki and bouba workshops. Form, as acknowledging phrases, sentences and paragraphs in a musical composition. In 2012, an invitation from Cambridge, UK to give a lecture to dancers, gave me a nice push to consolidate all these aspects to come up with a project "8 elements of music - every dancer should study”.

Cassiel: You teach the 8 elements with a lecture and workshops. Could you please describe your basic ideas?

Murat Erdemsel: It came to life on the dance floor. I kept trying to answer myself, "what is this thing that I am doing endlessly here and not getting tired?" Other than multitasking the 5 aspects we just spoke about above, (I, my partner, music, vocabulary, environment) there was something else that I was fascinated in my head, calculating, stitching, shaping things and making meanings. I finally realized what I was doing: syntaxing. Almost literally. Musical syntax, creating rules that can bring meaningful sentences by ordering the right musical words in their definitions. Those being the steps, movements and gestures, getting together in the music completing the puzzle. I started collecting tools which would make it easier for me to dance and to share with our students. 8 elements in tango music are the elements all tango dancers need to study.

• Beat (catching the most basic unit in tango)
• Rhythm (timeline made out of specifically ordered beats)
• Melody
• Harmony
• Texture (simplicity, complexity)
• Dynamics (strength of execution)
• Timbre (Color quality of the tone, using different instruments)
• Form (composition)

There has been a few more elements I worked on but then decided to exclude. Such as lyrics and history.

Cassiel: How is the initial approach from the students? Do they accept this abstract or theoretical approach? Do you see any difficulties or advantages?

Murat Erdemsel: I may appear to them to be too technical first. Setting up my projector, laptop, a wireless microphone. I try to dress up well, I speak decent English. I heard of some students immediately think of me as an American University professor who will “talk” about tango. But shortly after sharing the contents, they realize it is all made for the sake of instinctive learning. I believe in the strength of our sense “sight”, as much if not more than the other senses. Being a visual artist, I have witnessed the power of showing images to convey messages and reach them quicker yet deeper in mind.

So far feedback is tremendously positive. I am finding new ways of formatting it. Usually our workshops start with V, K, A. visual-kinesthetic-auditory approach. I like to make them move as quick as possible, make them use their hands, maybe sing. After 10 minutes of movement, invite them to have a seat for another 10 minutes for visual inspiration with my slides. Then practicing the rest of the workshop. This format has been the best for my workflow so far.

Cassiel: We should take the time and talk about each elements. For me it seems obvious when you speak about beat, rhythm and melody... dynamics is no problem.. maybe you could go a bit more in the details for the rest of your 8 elements (harmony, texture, timbre)?

Murat Erdemsel: You are right. Catching the right beat in the music was an obvious work for all of us in the beginning. Most of the musicality workshops I have attended were about rhythm and melody and how different orchestras interpreted these 2 aspects. But the timbre and texture aspects are far less studied yet very prominent part of the tango music. And there are hundreds of exercises can be made out of each aspect.
To define texture, I share with our students the artworks of Seurat, Van Gogh, and most expectedly Jackson Pollock. They defined the thick texture in their paintings very well, compared to the renaissance paintings of Leonardo and Raffaello. Later on Mark Rothko and few others with their minimalist approach are the good examples to define the effect of thin texture. In terms of complexity, Bruegel paintings are also in the presentation.
Then speaking of examples in classical music, I share "G. Mahler, Symphony no. 10 adagio Conducted by Leonard Bernstein" for thin texture with all of it’s beautiful plainness,
then "Lang Lang playing Franz Liszt, La Campanella" to share the thick texture with it’s complexity.

Jackson Pollock at work

During the workshop I share some of these tangos:

Francisco Canaro, Adios Pampa Mia
Rodolfo Biagi, Quejas de Bandoneon especially the variation section.
And as a torture test to practice highly textured gestures, I bring in, Edgardo Donato, La Tablada, and El Acomodo.

Known quotes used during the presentation:
Thin texture: “less is more” - Robert Browning, 1855

Thick texture: “god is in the detail” - Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, 1886

Cassiel:
You seem to be approaching the subject from many angles. It feels as it is not only about tango anymore. What do you discuss during the workshops about these quotes you mentioned above?

Murat Erdemsel: How many times we have heard wise people telling us "mistakes are your friends, do not be scared of making mistakes". But if you notice, only the people who mastered their work are able to say “don't be afraid of making mistakes”, "mistakes are opportunities" they say. These are the people who already have full control over their work. Even so, they actually come close to being bored with what they do, and seeking for surprises. For them mistakes are fun. For us, normal people, intermediate dancers, musicians, artists, mistakes are certainly not fun.
Let me give another example. If I climb up on a hill and look at the other side, and see how everything looks, then come down to explain everybody that on the other side of the hill, there is nothing to be afraid of. Do you think those people will be just as comfortable as I am about what can happen on the other side of the hill? They may trust me and take a step forward but they will never understand what I felt until themselves do it so.
Same thing applies to those world known quotes: "Less is more", "God is in details" (as Italians say "the Devil is in details"). You simply can not appreciate simplicity if you have not spent yourself in complications. If you claim you appreciate simplicity without that process, you don't quite know what you are talking about and actually secretly craving for the other.

Cassiel: Less is more = Thin Texture = Simplicity.
God is in details = Thick Texture = Complexity

Am I right making this supposition? What is your suggestion for the students after all?

Murat Erdemsel:
Yes that looks right. What I suggest is a kind of a learning process that should always remind us to see the bigger picture. I suggest teachers to inspire their students to be honest, to be true to themselves and to the others. Mistakes are not always terrible. While they are there to avoid, they are sometimes unavoidable and we should be aware of them and prepare ourselves for the consequences.

Cassiel: What is the benefit for a tango-dancer of knowing special aspects of the texture? Will he recognize differences immediately? In what way could he enrich his dance?

Murat Erdemsel: After the workshop they can not not hear the textural differences. They make clear changes in their dance without needing to learn new steps and patterns. Composer of the piece had the skill of playing with these textures. All we need to do is, to become an organic part of it. It’s in the music when to be simple, when complex. See, again. It is not our perception nor our individual creativity skills. This is all in the music, very well arranged and organized. We simply need to listen and observe it as it is, then bring it on to the dance floor.

Cassiel: Do you think it is a suggestion or is it a demand?

Murat Erdemsel: That depends on how much we respect it. I take it as a demand, and always imagine Canaro's ghost who will come to my nightmares and mess with me if I do not dance to his composition respectfully. Have you seen his face? He seemed frightening.

Cassiel: And what do you mean speaking of timbre... that sounds strange in the first moment... Is it a question of composition or of performing?

Murat Erdemsel: I combine wikipedia descriptions in my slides. Here what it says about Timbre: Color and tonal quality of the sound, instruments. For example, Saxophone and trumpet may play a very same piece of melody. Same rhythm, pitch and dynamics and so on. What still makes them different from each other is timbre. They sounds timbrally different. Every human voice will differ by timbre from others’ voices. In the workshop we use this as being able to detect and differentiate the instruments. Thus taking different actions to them. Since we are 2 people in the partnership, we can even distribute some roles to alternating instruments. Many times, melody can be played as it is in a spoken conversation. One instrument plays the first half of the sentence, the other one plays the second half, as they ask and answer each other.
Working on Timbre, potentially allows us dancers, to play with these instruments and how they behave with each other. One of our most effective workshops. It is one another simple idea, but can be very challenging. I use:
Canaro, Corazon encadenado.
José Garcia, Junto A Tu Corazon.
Rodriguez, Marinero.
etc.
FORM. It is basically the composition of the music, its structure. Many times, tangos are composed in ABACA or ABABC form. Form teaches us, the understanding of the music as a whole, seeing it as a big picture. Hearing and dancing to the overall changes in the piece from paragraph to paragraph or from phrase to phrase rather than getting lost in small details.

Carlos di Sarli's Indio Manso by Murat Erdemsel. 15in x 45in

Form aspect of the music influenced me very heavily and inspired me to make some tango paintings. This was one of the first moments for me to visualize the music. It truly helped me to simplify everything so I can get to express how to comprehend the music by seeing it, rather than only listening to it.
 You will find more detailed informations on my Website.

Cassiel: You mentioned your tango-paintings. I've seen your interview with Bob Neuman on YouTube 3 years ago. Do you find time to paint new tango-artworks?

Murat Erdemsel: As soon as I find the space and time I do. I want to make a new painting for Cara Sucia. Then later, another one for La capilla blanca. Both by Carlos Di Sarli.

Cassiel: But you have done it already (Cara Sucia) or do I mess up things now?

Murat Erdemsel: This makes me think of a turkish man once said, “not that I am aware of”, after hearing a question, do you have kids? Cara Sucia painting will be very different than the rest.
Most recently, Mervyn Dsouza from London, UK who attended one of my lectures and saw a small animation about the piece, cara sucia, sent me an email and shared this:


The original work she was inspired from was this:


 Our dance to Cara Sucia.

Cassiel: You have danced a show recently in Copenhagen and published a video on YouTube. Would you like to describe the idea and your work to implement is (technically and as a dancer).

Murat Erdemsel: There are a few more of these paintings/videos on youtube. These are tango songs visualized on canvases with acrylics and painted as journalistic style illustrations reflecting the true elements in the music with only a gentle amount of interpretation. Panoramic painting follows the song second by second. I mostly used the "8 elements" we discussed in these paintings. Our dance performances with these paintings, gave me chance to show how 3 corners of the triangle are in balance. Music, Fine art and Dance. I am proud of the project overall, although it has not been so easy to technically perfect the presentation during performances. Audience can not see the entire artwork during the performance if they are not on high platforms. Floors are not perfect to project images all the time. Projectors we use are not powerful enough, etc.

Indio Manso (Carlos di Sarli) - Phrase Analysis
Indio Manso (Carlos di Sarli) and it's phrase analysis. Polar Coordinated
Indio Manso (Carlos di Sarli) - Step by Step Visualization
Indio Manso (Carlos di Sarli) - Danced by Michelle and Murat Erdemsel

Performance with the S.O.S. painting


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Continue reading here:
An Interview with Murat Erdemsel - Part C